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I have no clue what the answer might be to the question "How dark is too dark?" I'm not even sure there is an answer, because human taste is so subjective.
That subjectivity is both the good news and the bad news. Good because it means there has got to be someone out there who will love what you write, and bad for the exact same reason in reverse.
I suppose the goal is to get more people loving what you write than not loving it. There's no way in hell anyone can please everybody, and have everybody love what you write.
Personally, I can only take dark, sad literature in very small bites (read never). When I got to the end of The Last Oracle by James Rollins and the ending made me cry, I felt betrayed. I enjoyed about the first five Anita Blake novels before the dark angst got too be too much. I avoid sad, dark anything with a passion.
Color me surprised when The Age of Stars is dark, sad, pain filled and super-emotional. I have three broken main characters, and the novel starts out with their brokenness splayed out on the page. There will be a happy ending for two of them, as they heal each other. The third, not so much. His is a tragically sad ending, and the more I get to know his brokenness, the sadder I feel for him. I think I need him to kick a cat or something so I stop feeling sorry for him. He is the bad guy, after all.
People use each other, betray each other, have their hearts broken, and apparently are going to have a lot of sex. At least, to start with.
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Before I even started writing the novel, I knew it was going to be a huge challenge for me. I knew it was going to be dark and uncomfortable, but since I knew there was going to be a happy ending and the main characters grow to a better emotional place, I was okay with it.
Then I read this excellent post by Anna Elliott on Writer Unboxed about achieving that balance between likable and unlikable characters. My head swam as I extrapolated the post to my whole book.
Am I writing an unlikable novel? Would people, first of which would be agents and publishers, be willing to give my characters the chance to grow to the better place, or would they toss the book into the trash because it's too sad and too dark?
I don't know.
The story compels me, though. I want to write it as I plotted it out. The characters are fully formed in my mind. To change the story would be false to me.
I had a little emotional breakdown over the weekend, and I owe a huge thanks to those of you who took the time to talk me down. I decided to just write the first draft as planned, and do it as quickly as I can. I'll give it some time to percolate, and then I'll decide what to do with it. When in doubt, procrastinate, right?
Where do you think that line is when a story is too dark? Have you ever written a story you thought was too dark?
Great post. It's tough to balance. I'm inclined towards dark stuff as a writer and reader because it makes for higher emotional stakes... I don't necessarily read to be carried off to a happy bubble. It can be too much though... you need to have a glimmer of hope, though I don't like pat endings as they're not realistic. I'd rather leave it ambiguous for the reader to decide - I think most would leap to the happier conclusion anyway. Not sure an agent would feel that way, though! Whoops, that's a lot of "thoughs" in one comment. :)
ReplyDeleteThanks, Nick. I think you're right about emotional stakes. In fact, when I saw Donald Mass at the Pikes Peak Writer's Conference, he suggested that the more emotion you can wring out of a manuscript, the better chance you have of resonating with people. And Anna Elliott does mention him as to how to make a character likable. Maybe I should get out my Fire in Fiction book and do a little studying. :)
DeletePersonally, the darker a story is, the more I love it. To me those are the "real" stories, the ones that connect to me on an emotional level. Even better if there's no happy endings.
ReplyDeleteNo, those types don't appeal to everyone, but they do appeal to a lot of people. And we really, really appreciate them! (Good luck!)
"And we really, really appreciate them!" - I never thought about it that way!
DeleteI like a story that takes you on a journey so I think sometimes that means experiencing many emotions good and bad. I can relate to what you are saying though because I worry about characters and how they may appear at the start of a story. Will the reader be prepared to invest their time in a flawed character if by the end of the story that character has changed and grown for the better? Or will they simply not like the character and give up with your story? Hmm that goes for agents as well I suppose. I guess we all need to listen to advice but in the end we should go with our own heart. Good luck.
ReplyDeleteThat old adage "Write what you would read" is good advice, and maybe that's where I'm having a problem. I might not read my own story, so I'm wondering if others wouldn't like it as well. Hmmm... Thanks for leading me to a little epiphany!
DeleteI'm glad that you decided to do it. Like you said, you can always change it later.
ReplyDeleteI'm mostly a happily ever after person. Tragic endings are not my favorite, especially when the mc has struggled throughout the story. There have probably been a few exceptions, but in general the tragic endings depress me.
BUT.. I have to say, books with endings like those stick with me for a long time--which is something we want as authors. And maybe it's good to throw those surprises in there.
My advice since you're already struggling with the darkness is, as you write this, don't read dark stuff yourself. Read uplifting or HEA books, because otherwise those other stories might help pull you down, making it harder to write.
Great advice about the more lighthearted books. I have Janet Evanovich waiting in the wings. I just need to finish the Joseph Nassise Knight's Templar #2 I'm currently reading.
DeleteWhat you said about those stories sticking with you - I totally agree. The Last Oracle is up there at the top of my list of great stories, even though it made me cry. The idea for Age of Stars was born of the fact that some day the stars will burn out and the Universe will be in darkness. I guess that probably should have tipped me off as to the tone of the story, huh?
Reading this does my heart a lot of good. I've gone to The Dark Side in two of my four completed manuscripts. I think Suzi's onto something--darkness, books with tough emotional issues, are the ones that leave me thinking after I turn the last page.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of The Dark Side, Star Wars, particularly the fourth through sixth movies (Episodes 1-3) are pretty damn dark. But, if you'll recall, the subtitle of Episode 4 (the first movie) is A New Hope. ;-)
I'm glad you're willing to explore where this is taking you. I've been pretty surprised at how most readers are receiving my 'dark stuff.' In a good way. :-)
I'm certainly happy to hear that your readers are receiving the dark positively. It makes me feel a little better that I'm not shooting myself in the foot with this story. :)
DeleteI agree, Star Wars 4-6 really are dark. I didn't let my kids watch them because I thought it would be too much. And I did cry during the last duel between Anakin and Obi Wan and when Anakin's Darth Vader mask was fitted over his face. It was so sad! Although so many pan the movies, I have to admit I like them. The special effects are fabulous and the light saber duels are outstanding. Darth Maul and General Grievous are so cool! And Yoda rocks!
I think that if writing this book is challenging you, stirring your emotions, and keeping you up nights, it will probably do the same for your readers. I don't know a ton about writing but I do knwo that when I knit gifts for people (which is a tiny bit like writing, right?) the more I struggled and thought and pushed myself, the better the gift and the more impact it has. Sometimes the impact is mostly on me and not the receiver, but it is still important.
ReplyDeleteI hope that all makes sense!
I totally understand what you're saying! I think anything creative makes us relate to each other on the artistic level. It's a great point that challenging ourselves makes us grow - both creatively and as human beings. Thanks for the reminder. Now, if you find me sitting in my office at work crying from all the sadness, you'll have to give me a little therapy, k?
DeleteThe more I write, the more darker my novels become. I think this is because the world can be a dark place. But I *NEVER* write darkness just for the fun of it. My characters always work to over come the dark. And that's what I want my stories to be about. Good always prevails over evil. Yes, some don't make it, but it's like that in real life, isn't it? There are those who succumb to the evil realms and some who prevail. And I think that's why I write with more darkness than I used to.
ReplyDeleteI think you hit on exactly why I avoid dark. The world can be a dark place! I read to escape the darkness! That also might be why this novel is so dark, because it is a reflection of what I see around me. (Being a social worker, I get to vicariously experience some pretty icky stuff.)
DeleteI don't mind some dark lit as long as there are some rays of light as well. I hate crappy endings (as in sad, unsatisfying - the hero got screwed endings) If I'm depressed after reading a book, I hate it. I want to end up feeling good, not crappy.
ReplyDeleteI don't like those hero getting screwed endings, either. I also don't like the "sadder but wiser" ones. Somebody has to have some degree of happiness, dang it!
DeleteThe novel can be dark. The characters can be unsypathetic, even downright mean, but they have to be real. If the story is good, well-structured, well-paced, and well-written, I think you're good. If you have happy endings for two, then the tragedy of your third character will be forgiven, as long as there is a resolution of some description.
ReplyDeleteRe: the sex ... check out Diana Gabaldon's blog. A couple of months ago (I think) she regained copyright on an article about that subject. She has some really good advice.
I'll definitely be checking out the article! Thanks for sharing with me. I hope the novel will be good! It's going to take some effort to get it there, though. :)
DeleteThere is an audience for the dark stuff. For me, there's no such thing as too dark. I like to think there is redemption for all things. I just finished reading Jessica Morrell's Bullies, Bastards, and Bitches: How to Write the Bad Guys of Fiction and there is a chapter where she mentions sympathetic bad guys. I love the dark stuff.
ReplyDeleteThis is the first time where I really feel bad for a character to the point where I am wondering how hard it is going to be to write that sad ending. I know I gotta do it...
DeleteI think an agent/publisher would give a character room to grow. I think the main thing, myself, is a character who feels real, and where we believe their choices and voice, whether dark or light. If that makes any sense. Found you through the links of GUTGAA and newly following.
ReplyDeleteThanks so much for stopping by and for the follow, too! You make perfect sense. Making characters believable is terribly important. I hope I'm making their motivations understood, without being corny, of course. :) Man writing is hard!
DeleteIf you are compelled, you must write it. Doesn't matter what others think, doesn't matter if it ever gets published. You must write it. I'm a writer of horror, and much of what I write - memories, dark memories. I excise my demons by writing them. I have fewer nightmares since I started writing my memories.
ReplyDeleteWriting does pull it out, I think. It's great you've been able to release that inner darkness. Colin Falconer wrote a post about inner demons that was really applicable. Here's the link if you want to read it. I'm hoping I don't get stuck on one demon... http://colinfalconer.wordpress.com/2012/06/27/does-your-monster-keep-you-from-the-masterpiece-in-you/
DeleteHi, I just randomly clicked on your blog from the GUTGAA and thought I'd comment =)
ReplyDeleteI love dark stories. My opinion is there are only two ways it can be too dark. 1) it become hopeless and drags the reader down with it, or 2) It's dark simply for the sake of being dark.
I think there are some incredibly interesting stories that come out of dark times. Dark thoughts, actions, people. As long as you are using it to tell those stories (and not just throwing in those "dark" things on a whim, or because you think it will make your story more interesting)and they have SOME hope, there aren't many ways you can go wrong IMO. I LOVE me a bitter sweet ending.
GL
Thanks for the thoughtful comment and visit! I definitely agree there needs to be hope and a reason for the darkness. I am trying to keep it real, and definitely want to have that hope/light/good feeling peeking throughout. It's going to be interesting to see how it all turns out.
DeleteWell I like the dark stuff and that's what I write. I know that it's not for everyone and I am totally fine with that. In terms of how dark to go--detail-wise--an agent once told me that less is more. Leave the details out because then the scary stuff is left to the imagination of each individual reader and that makes it more impactful. No two people will imagine exactly the same thing, I suppose. Anyway my thing about things being too dark is that a writer simply has to give us something either positive at the end or something meaningful. Otherwise, for me, it's TOO dark. Kind of like at the end of Saving Private Ryan (which is one of the darkest stories ever for me) when Tom Hanks' character looks at young Private Ryan and says, "Earn this"--that had meaning and that kind of redeemed the rest of the movie for me. I think in life we get too much crap piled upon crap with no light at the end of the tunnel. So at the end of a dark book, give me some glimmer of hope or at least something to think about.
ReplyDeleteGood luck with what you're working on. Give yourself permission to take your time and don't pressure yourself--there are always revisions!
I so agree about Saving Private Ryan! I watched that movie and felt beat up by the end! Thanks for giving me some hope for my novel! :)
DeleteI don't think there is such a thing as too dark per se, since tastes vary, but for me, if the story is completely hopeless and there are no redeeming values or qualities in the characters, it is too dark. That said, you need to write what wants to "come out" of your heart & mind. My novel is just that too, the story that was inside, dark but with light at the end.
ReplyDeleteI definitely have a somewhat hopeful ending. I couldn't live with myself if everyone died at the end or something!
DeleteOuch. You poor thing! *HUG* I'm glad you had people to talk to while you were freaking on the weekend. As for dark stories, well for me there at least has to be a happy ending for some people. I hate a dark novel (or story in general) that starts out dark and just gets darker, even if there are humorous parts along the way. I hate it when the ending is totally dark and not a ray of light in sight.
ReplyDeleteThen I think about, say, THE HUNGER GAMES, which really, had a pretty dark ending. It did have happiness in some form, for some characters, but overall I think the darkness won out, no matter what Suzanne Collins may believe about her own storyline. So in a way I found that pretty depressing. But realistic. A big cheery happy ending would have seemed extremely false, to use the word you used here. So...I dunno. It's a tough one for sure.
It is for that reason I haven't read Hunger Games and don't want to see the movies. I figure there can't be any way it could end happily.
DeleteYou made me think. My story starts out dark, and over the course of the book ends up with hope. That's probably why I'm worried that people won't read it, because the first 50 pages is set up with darkness. I guess if I can get the readers involved with the characters they might have a chance...
"I think I need him to kick a cat or something so I stop feeling sorry for him." LOL! (I really did, I really, really did.) IME, (dpn't know if that's a real abbreviation or not, but if it isn't: in my experience) it's all about the balance. I love the dark stuff, I write too, but, there *has* to be a balance.
ReplyDeleteHave you noticed lately that in media almost anything goes? Tales that would never have seen print or film are rising at a surprising rate because the word is--shock sells. I won't argue with that, but the point of difference is: where do you leave your reader/viewer? You can drag me through the mud, pull my hair, stomp on my heart, but mister (or ma'am) you had better deliver my well-deserved compensation, for sticking with all that, in the end.
Take the Hugh Jackman movie, Real Steel. I adore this actor so I was primed to like the film even before I watched it. I was hugely disappointed and appalled at the writing that would portray this particularly awful father as a protag; I was *mad*. The two hours spent watching the film were a total waste, except for this lesson: if your protag is unlikeable, your reader won't connect with or root for him, or her.
So what makes the difference? IMO, that guy has to change and not only by the end, but you have to give me reasons, throughout, to stick with him-- and I have to feel something, some that he is worthy of my concern. In Hugh's case the only reason I stuck with him was b/c I liked the son-- but that was not enough to improve my enjoyment. In fact, it made it worse as I pitied the poor boy. I sat, shell-shocked that my beloved actor was such a curmudgeon. I couldn't reconcile it. The result? I wouldn't own this movie or watch it again.
What would have helped? Give me what I call "sweet spots." Bright moments to off-set the dark (which surprisingly makes the dark even more creepy by contrast.) Reward me with character behavior that helps me root for this "hard-to-like" guy-- a contrasting glimmer of sunshine to show I can relate to him. And while he may come to a destructive end, there has to be a balance I can appreciate and mourn. Why else would I care if he dies? Unless I'm rooting for that end, and in that case he's not a pro tag, he's the antag.
Wow. I really spouted off, didn't I? You can do this, Lara. I know you can and the reason why is b/c already you're searching for these solutions. You instinctively know you need them and I applaud that keener instinct. Good luck, my friend. :)
Great thoughts, Denise. Maybe it really does come down to likable characters, then. They can be wallowing in ick, but as long as we're rooting for them people won't quit reading. I appreciate your long response, because it gave me lots of food for thought!
DeleteI think it's great you're stretching yourself like this with your WIP. Writing outside of our familiar territory can only make us better writers. I'm generally okay with reading dark stuff and what I write is also pretty dark, but I can understand how it's not to everyone's taste.
ReplyDeleteFor me, there's a bit of "yeah, the real world can be a pretty dark place, but wow...am I glad I don't live in the world of this book" kind of thing going on when I read bleak fiction. When I need to balance the darkness, I just go to the internet for some pictures of cats :)
Good luck with the WIP! It sounds intriguing.
Yay for cute pictures of cats! Nice to see you, Mike! I'll take all the luck I can get, by the way.
DeleteNice to see you too :) Sorry if I've been a social media slacker lately...sometimes I just don't know where all the time goes.
DeleteI'm probably in a very small minority, Lara. When I begin to write, I think my grandsons or my Sunday School classmates might end up reading it. That pretty much guides the tone of anything I write. As you can tell from Fancy, it's not very dark and contains no graphic sex or violence of cursing. Maybe my head's in the sand, but I think there are still readers out there who value a good story above a lot of graphic crap.
ReplyDeleteI totally understand, and feel the same way, believe it or not. I don't want to write anything that might get me fired, for sure! That's partially why I'm in this quandary. I don't want to write anything for shock value or have sex in a manuscript just because "sex sells." I don't want to write dark just for darkness' sake. But this story went places that I didn't expect, and it's made me a mite uncomfortable!
DeleteI write horror so a lot of my stories are dark and icky. And many of them - while dark - are funny as well. Yes, in a sick sort of way. Hey, that's me. I excise my demons (which look remarkably like my exes) while writing horror. "They" say even the bad guys need to have one good trait, just like the good guys need to have a fault.
ReplyDeleteI really am curious as to your exes. :)
DeleteI feel like my memoir is too dark (or heavy) for some. Still revising - slowly. It helped to write it fast, so I didn't focus too much on this. I'm sure later I can focus more on this aspect of it. :)
ReplyDeleteIs it harder to go slow, or because you're approaching it as examining the writing it kind of takes your mind off the heaviness?
DeleteI have to be in a mood to read dark stories, which isn't very often. Mostly I prefer more lighthearted things, and that's how I write. I do have an unfinished novel that I tried to "darken" my writing with. I scared the crap out of myself! I don't know if I will ever be able to finish it.
ReplyDeleteI'm with you about lighthearted. Denial is my middle name. When I read, I want to believe all the sad stuff isn't out there. My own version of fiction, I guess.
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